Petition against Casino
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If you are not a gambler, stand up for your self-interest instead of being co-opted into the other camp just because you think it's not pragmatic to do so.Pragmatism will kill us one day.Because we will lack the spirit to find new ways of doing things based on the premise that it's too hard or too troublesome.
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I may not be a gambler, but i'm open.. that's the difference between me and you.
I'm open enough to see both sides of the camp and give a viewpoint. I have tried some gambling before in my life, and know how it feels, but was never addicted to it.
If it's pragmatic(practical) about the issue that you mention, then you agree it's practical. Singapore is only a small dot in this entire world, let me see how you can think of something that can really outbeat the entire world economic circle... -
AntiAnti,
The pros n cons of having a casino is already debated upon for a long time before you join the forum.
Casino will increase the social problems around that area.
Casino will make gamblers lose more money more quicky.
$100 entrance fee is a small amount, and the casino is never meant for tourist only.
As a non-gambler, the petition against casino is for the good of the people, not for me. There are many people in Singapore whose families are broken because of gambling. How much more when casino is built?
When the MIW want to do something, it will always gives 101 good reasons. But once it is there, the MIW has no need to fullfil their reasons. You shd know who will profit$ and who will suffer the social ills, from the casino.
By the way, pls read my text carefully. I have said my father gambles alot during my younger days. So he didn't gambles now liao. Pls dun add the word "complusive" as it means a different thing. -
OK!!! Then, let's weight the pros and cons then, than we see which is for the good of the people as you declared....
Con:
More social problems=>
In Singapore???? You are kidding me!!!! Any real social problems we have is so easily subdued by the police, does anyone dare to cause problems here???
More local gamblers will lose money=>
Again you are not seeing what is already happening!!! They are already losing money!!!! Why would they go to a casino paying $100 entrance fee, they might as well go Genting....
Less morality and value=>
I've argued that out, in this modern world, i don't think the values and morality is really an issue, people are already aware. If they step into things, it's their own choice.
Pro:
More gamblers will lose money=>
Yes, foreign ones will lose money on us!!!
More jobs available=>
Yep, not just in the casino but around it, there probably be pubs/clubs, restaurants, cafes etc etc
The way i see it, the pros are greater than the cons, i support building the casino for the good of the people as well..... -
Some studies....
Dec 17, 2004
Casinos: Economic costs as big as any benefits
By Yeoh Lam Keong
For The Straits Times
THE integrated casino resort project (ICR) has been proposed principally to re-energise Singapore's flagging tourism industry.
On its surface, the model looks seductive. Only 30 to 50 per cent of the project is supposed to be centred on gaming. The bulk of the revenues from the $2 billion investment, we are told, should, as in Atlantis or Las Vegas, come from an alluring infrastructure of high-end hotels, world-class entertainment, restaurants and convention facilities that would also synergistically benefit tourism as a whole.
Surely, the argument goes, if through ingenious regulation we can contain the worst excesses of the ICR's acknowledged social ills, we should be willing to step outside the box of our traditional caution and give it a spin?
The fact that Thailand, Korea and Macau are all planning to deregulate and/or further attract investment in this area gives added urgency to the project. Do we want to be left behind? Should we not, as Associate Professor Winston Koh of SMU, and others, have argued, also establish ourselves as serious players in the mega gaming/tourism sector?
Tempting
LIKE its high rolling namesake, the ICR project looks tempting. A much darker picture, however, emerges if one looks at its economic costs.
First, while the benefits are potentially large (Prof Koh estimates the ICR can add 0.3 to 1 per cent of GDP), the costs are equally big. Cost benefit studies of Australia's experience in gaming estimate a sum of between A$1.8 billion (S$2.3 billion) and A$5.6 billion on both the benefits and costs sides of the ledger.
Australian Productivity Commission (APC) listed the following among the main costs: Bankruptcy, loss of work productivity, job losses, police incidents, court cases, divorce and violence. The impact on family dysfunction and breakdown is obvious.
The APC found that 96 per cent of problem gamblers suffered from depression, 58 per cent have considered suicide and 14 per cent had attempted it. Half spent over 50 per cent of their income on their vice.
Problem gamblers may constitute only a tiny minority - typically, 1 per cent to 2 per cent of any population, according to Australian and American studies. But the multiplier effects of their pathology can be large. In Singapore, potentially 40,000 to 60,000 people may become problem gamblers. But between 120,000 and 180,000 family members may be indirectly harmed by their vice.
Economist call such impact 'negative externality'. The market is ill-suited in valuing 'non-price goods' or in regulating the negative social effects of certain kinds of economic activity. We know, for example, that it cannot satisfactorily price the benefits of 'clean air' or a 'green environment' or prevent pollution reaching excessive levels without regulation.
Similarly, the market cannot adequately price or limit the impact of gambling-related depression, poverty or suicide on a family. What is the true cost of family dysfunction and breakdown? The counselling charges paid by pathological gamblers hardly captures the full cost.
For this reason, economists who have done cost-benefit analyses of gaming have argued that its costs have been badly understated. Most analyses, using conservative estimates, have found the costs outweigh the benefits.
Can regulation reduce these costs? Can limiting access to casinos to high-rolling tourists or to rich citizens, for example, reduce the number of problem gamblers? Can't Singapore have its cake and eat it too?
Unfortunately, the economics of the gaming industry work against this.
To begin with, the bulk of most casinos' clientele tend to be local residents - usually 70 per cent to 80 per cent even in tourist-intensive locations like Australia or Genting, in Malaysia. Atlantis and Las Vegas, which rely principally on non-residents or foreign tourists, are not at all typical examples.
In Singapore's case, the greater the regulation of locals, the greater will be the implicit 'tax' on its ICR as compared to less regulated regional gaming establishments. Over time, the more intense the regional competition gets, the more financially unviable will local regulation become. After sinking more than $2 billion into such a project, there is likely to be increasing pressure to relax or dilute restrictions on local clientele so the ICR can be competitive with other casinos in the region, subject to fewer restrictions. The financial viability of the local casino may require the acceptance of high levels of local misery. -
any known treatment to quit gambling?
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I find that there is an error in the report somehow, i've been to the casinos abroad, and yes, the bulk of the cliente are locals, true! But, the ones that actually spend a lot are the tourist!!! Most of the local cliente are just watching their friends, or throwing in just $10-$20 for small trills. That's part of the report seems inadequate.
Moreover, in Genting, the casino disallow their own malays to gamble in the casino. Only chinese and tourist are allowed. Most of Genting customers are Singaporeans.
I believe there are ways to direct the traffic in a casino to foreigners, in fact, there are ways to make changes in things. Local education to gambling addicts are possible, exposure ain't always a bad thing.....
I've been to casinos abroad, besides the casino, the nearby restaurants, pubs, lounges and shops enjoy more profitable business as well... -
Quoting from above report
Most analyses, using conservative estimates, have found the costs outweigh the benefits.
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using conservative estimates
Oh come on!!!! If casino doesn't give the revenue in, why do 1st world countries still have it hanging around and groom it with glittering decorations. Obviously, there are a lot of financial records not really proclaim in records.
Money is quantifiable but psychology of people and what it does to their 'values and morals' are subjective, based upon many many different factors.
There are many people who are conservative and so-called ethical around, it doesn't make them good people, when they face a situation where they are asked to help, they cast a blind eye.
Values and morals are self-proclaimed. Gamblers do fit only a small percentage in society, and what's more these small percentage are already gambling at the moment, and the people around them are already affected.
And still it is evidently clear that Genting casino is around for ages, there is nothing anyone here can do to stop people going there to gamble. What i prefer to do is let people channel the money here than there.
Even if our local gamblers go into a state of bankruptcy becos of their bad habits, at least all they have thrown have been contributed to their own country. -
How about the gambler's family members?Originally posted by AntiAnti:Even if our local gamblers go into a state of bankruptcy becos of their bad habits, at least all they have thrown have been contributed to their own country.
Aren't you selfish be'cos of money? -
What if one day the gahment wanted to make singapore a haven for prositution? I am sure you will agree because of $money$.Originally posted by AntiAnti:Oh come on!!!! If casino doesn't give the revenue in, why do 1st world countries still have it hanging around and groom it with glittering decorations. Obviously, there are a lot of financial records not really proclaim in records.
Money is quantifiable but psychology of people and what it does to their 'values and morals' are subjective, based upon many many different factors.
There are many people who are conservative and so-called ethical around, it doesn't make them good people, when they face a situation where they are asked to help, they cast a blind eye.
Values and morals are self-proclaimed. Gamblers do fit only a small percentage in society, and what's more these small percentage are already gambling at the moment, and the people around them are already affected.
And still it is evidently clear that Genting casino is around for ages, there is nothing anyone here can do to stop people going there to gamble. What i prefer to do is let people channel the money here than there.
Even if our local gamblers go into a state of bankruptcy becos of their bad habits, at least all they have thrown have been contributed to their own country. -
At least the reports are quoting from studies, but you are quoting from your personal opinion.Originally posted by AntiAnti:I find that there is an error in the report somehow, i've been to the casinos abroad, and yes, the bulk of the cliente are locals, true! But, the ones that actually spend a lot are the tourist!!! Most of the local cliente are just watching their friends, or throwing in just $10-$20 for small trills. That's part of the report seems inadequate. -
The last part was just plain selfish.Are you the sort of person that believes that we were born to serve our nation?The people must come before anything else.How many countries have casinos? Less than ten.How many have it as their major revenue source?US, Australia?Dream on.The difference between you and me is that I am empathic and you see it fit for pragmatism to be the sole ideal for our country to worship.Let's see how you react if you have a family member addicted to gambling.Stand firm and not follow the easy route to destruction.Originally posted by AntiAnti:Oh come on!!!! If casino doesn't give the revenue in, why do 1st world countries still have it hanging around and groom it with glittering decorations. Obviously, there are a lot of financial records not really proclaim in records.
Money is quantifiable but psychology of people and what it does to their 'values and morals' are subjective, based upon many many different factors.
There are many people who are conservative and so-called ethical around, it doesn't make them good people, when they face a situation where they are asked to help, they cast a blind eye.
Values and morals are self-proclaimed. Gamblers do fit only a small percentage in society, and what's more these small percentage are already gambling at the moment, and the people around them are already affected.
And still it is evidently clear that Genting casino is around for ages, there is nothing anyone here can do to stop people going there to gamble. What i prefer to do is let people channel the money here than there.
Even if our local gamblers go into a state of bankruptcy becos of their bad habits, at least all they have thrown have been contributed to their own country. -
Wow, big words from people who think so greatly of themselves.... empathy huh??? I rather you should learn to understand. That kinda of thinking you guys have is like this, if you have some skin infection, you will tear all your skin away. If you grew a wart on your leg, you would chop of your whole leg, if you have a toothache, you would pull out all your teeth. hahaha!!!
Now let me put it to point, if there are some people who are gamblers and their family members are affected, you would ban gambling and all instances of it, if there are some people who takes drugs, you would jail up alll people who take and sentence them to death, if there are some prostitutes around, you would send them all to jail and punish everyone who visits them. That's the kinda of mentality you have.
Have you talk and sit down and understand prostitutes??? No
Have you talk and sit down and understand gamblers point of view?? No
Have you talk and sit down and understand druggies perception??? No
All you know is this is no good, ban, that is wrong, ban, etc etc etc....
And there you are telling me about right and wrong, ethics and morals, stop kidding me man!!! you don't understand enough to tallk about it in the first place. -
Pray tell what has medieval medical practices got to do with taking a stand that we should not contribute to the propagation of another form of gambling?Perhaps you should try to look away from the economic standpoint..Originally posted by AntiAnti:Wow, big words from people who think so greatly of themselves.... empathy huh??? I rather you should learn to understand. That kinda of thinking you guys have is like this, if you have some skin infection, you will tear all your skin away. If you grew a wart on your leg, you would chop of your whole leg, if you have a toothache, you would pull out all your teeth. hahaha!!!
Now let me put it to point, if there are some people who are gamblers and their family members are affected, you would ban gambling and all instances of it, if there are some people who takes drugs, you would jail up alll people who take and sentence them to death, if there are some prostitutes around, you would send them all to jail and punish everyone who visits them. That's the kinda of mentality you have.
Have you talk and sit down and understand prostitutes??? No
Have you talk and sit down and understand gamblers point of view?? No
Have you talk and sit down and understand druggies perception??? No
All you know is this is no good, ban, that is wrong, ban, etc etc etc....
And there you are telling me about right and wrong, ethics and morals, stop kidding me man!!! you don't understand enough to tallk about it in the first place. -
I fully supports the idea of Singapore Having a Casino.
No need to stress that it does helps economics.
What I see here ... Too many are fighting over basically "Human Behavior".
There are few who mentions Smoking & existing Gambling Issues. They are really right on this. Humans ourselves can determine what we want & don't. Just too bad too many gambler do understand very bad to gamble but themself cannot control. It's all in the brains.
The better way is to educate people. The "Way of Self Behaviour Controls". See how many Singaporean don't smoke, don't gamble & don't vist pros at all. They can do it, many more can do it also. This "IS" the essence that could tactle the problem in the brain. Let it be 1 or 10 Casinos ... there is no difference if we can behavior ourself.
Example if someone wants to slim down, he/she needs to exercise & keep a proper diet. This sounds simple but doing it needs a lot of continues mental strength. Self Control Behavior.
I really hope Singapore (WE) could develop some programs to "Way of Self Behaviour Controls". This could help many world wide also. I will be very proud if WE (Singaporean) could do this.
It's much more works in the brains then the actual Casino! Work the brains 
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Why we are not talking about exisiting gambling
The type of gambling that already exists here are mild as compared to a casino.
A guy betting on horse racing will probably not lose as much as in a casino.
And please don't tell me a scenario where this guy can bet thousands on horse racing, but only a few tens on casino.
For those who support casino
Then what are your views about those people who are addicted gamblers? What are your views about those people who suffer because their family members are addicted gamblers. The sitution will be worse when the casino is there.
Please don't tell me that only tourist will go there. Most probably the locals are also allowed. -
Problem being many people here lack self-control and the idea of responsible behavior.The majority of society knows not the meaning of saving and taking charge of what they do.They have a very short-term outlook regarding finances.We are not a people that has the ability to really look and tell ourselves that enough is enough.How often have we seen the sin of gluttony and greed show itself in the day to day lives of the population?
A strong sense of responsibility and ownership of the self is needed if we are to really alleviate the impact of a casino introduced to our shores.The big difference between us and the developed countries, is that they do not try to tell their people that the casino is the cure for an economic malaise.Their casino is but one of a big swath of industries.We, on the hand, are trying to elevate this elephant to the pantheon of a cure, a magic bullet to bring us the money that might not ever come back.Is this some sort of social engineering to capitalise on the Chinese predilection for gambling and games of chance?One might think that the entry fee is not much of a barrier to a die-hard or addictive gambler, and it helps to collect extra revenue on top of money collected by gamblers placing their bets.
Gambling is never a good thing, and policies based on the negative aspect of human behavior never come out perfect in the end.We will know whether the quality of life for society overall has improved one day.I'm not too optimistic about it.It's a toss-up between a more policed society to maintain the safe facade or a current status quo that is good enough for us to expand on and find alternative ways to try to trigger this economy, and we better find real diversification, instead of always putting our eggs into the manufacturing basket. -
For those who wanted to ban a casino, it doesn't means they never gamble before. It shows that they know the danger of a casino. It also shows that they don't want other people to have broken families.Originally posted by AntiAnti:And talk about gambling, i think it's all filled with hypocrites, if any of you want to stop gambling, then can you tell me you haven't betted in soccer before, or maybe gamble during Chinese New Year among your friends???
A gambler can gamble away the money used for educating the children, and also gamble away the future of their children. The effect is most felt with a casino. -
Originally posted by SnowFlag:
Gee, you don't know how many people who ruined their lives betting on soccer and horse racing. You really don't need a casino to do that to ruin people's lives. If you are a compulsive gambler it is only sooner or later that you will ruin your own life and affect your family with your bad habit. I know people who are compulsive gamblers. After school in poly they will just go to someone's house to play mahjong, when we were studying in Australia they went to the casino practically everyday. When they return to Singapore they just gambled with other stuff like cards or mahjong. It's sad but that is what compulsive gamblers do. They continue to gamble whether there is a casino or not and I don't see them losing less even without a casino.
[b]Why we are not talking about exisiting gambling
The type of gambling that already exists here are mild as compared to a casino.
A guy betting on horse racing will probably not lose as much as in a casino.
And please don't tell me a scenario where this guy can bet thousands on horse racing, but only a few tens on casino.
For those who support casino
Then what are your views about those people who are addicted gamblers? What are your views about those people who suffer because their family members are addicted gamblers. The sitution will be worse when the casino is there.
Please don't tell me that only tourist will go there. Most probably the locals are also allowed.
[/b]
It's kinda sad that it is a vicious cycle they can't break. Yes their family is suffering (I know coz my friends just end up paying thousands of dollars of debt for their father who love to gamble - no casino but they lose 10s of thousands of dollars on either soccer (especially soccer because of the bookie system) or horse racing.
I seriously don't see how a casino is going to stop that. Ultimately it is a person's individual choice on how they want to live their life. Also, every weekend do you know how many people actually go on cruises or genting so that they can make use of the casino facilities. Do you know that for regulars on cruise ships, they don't even need to pay for the cruise? It is already happening around us. People are paying to play, it is just that it is unseen and often unheard. But what you don't see and don't hear doesn't mean that it is not happening. -
But we can try to stop the tide from increasing.We are a small nation.If we make the wrong move, we might end up with a problem on our hands.LEt's not delude ourselves, we will never reach the fame of Las Vegas.So any injetcion of tourism dollar based on the casino alone will be negligible.Originally posted by elindra:Gee, you don't know how many people who ruined their lives betting on soccer and horse racing. You really don't need a casino to do that to ruin people's lives. If you are a compulsive gambler it is only sooner or later that you will ruin your own life and affect your family with your bad habit. I know people who are compulsive gamblers. After school in poly they will just go to someone's house to play mahjong, when we were studying in Australia they went to the casino practically everyday. When they return to Singapore they just gambled with other stuff like cards or mahjong. It's sad but that is what compulsive gamblers do. They continue to gamble whether there is a casino or not and I don't see them losing less even without a casino.
It's kinda sad that it is a vicious cycle they can't break. Yes their family is suffering (I know coz my friends just end up paying thousands of dollars of debt for their father who love to gamble - no casino but they lose 10s of thousands of dollars on either soccer (especially soccer because of the bookie system) or horse racing.
I seriously don't see how a casino is going to stop that. Ultimately it is a person's individual choice on how they want to live their life. Also, every weekend do you know how many people actually go on cruises or genting so that they can make use of the casino facilities. Do you know that for regulars on cruise ships, they don't even need to pay for the cruise? It is already happening around us. People are paying to play, it is just that it is unseen and often unheard. But what you don't see and don't hear doesn't mean that it is not happening. -
For those who support having a casino:Originally posted by AntiAnti:Why stop the casino???? The casino is not directed at us local Singaporeans, it's directed at the tourist.... and the rich..
You would have to pay $100 entrance fee to get in, only the rich and the tourist are allowed, so why are we against it???
Ever wonder why gambling is termed a vice.
To AntiAnti,
Having supported the casino, will you also play at the casino. if not, aren't you a hypocrite? -
First, I never say the current effect of the gambling is mild. But when comparing with casino, it will be mild.Originally posted by elindra:It's kinda sad that it is a vicious cycle they can't break. Yes their family is suffering (I know coz my friends just end up paying thousands of dollars of debt for their father who love to gamble - no casino but they lose 10s of thousands of dollars on either soccer (especially soccer because of the bookie system) or horse racing.
By voicing out against casino, we wanted to reverse the vicious cycle of gambling.
By supporting the casino, we are saying it is ok to gamble and to have broken families. -
Actually I'm not that concerned about people ruining their own lives (yes I know that this sounds super selfish but if they want to ruin themselves it is their own choice). What I'm more concerned is repercussions from having a casino like increase of illegal prostitution activities, money lending and other forms of crime.Originally posted by LazerLordz:But we can try to stop the tide from increasing.We are a small nation.If we make the wrong move, we might end up with a problem on our hands.LEt's not delude ourselves, we will never reach the fame of Las Vegas.So any injetcion of tourism dollar based on the casino alone will be negligible. -
If today, they say it is ok to gamble (although Lee Kuan Yew has said he will only allowed a casino over his dead body), then tomorrow, they will say it is ok for prostitution.Originally posted by elindra:What I'm more concerned is repercussions from having a casino like increase of illegal prostitution activities, money lending and other forms of crime.
..and we are paying each of them millions to run this country.