Originally posted by BroInChrist:And I believe I have already given the answer from the Bible.
My example of the gunman not keeping his word is to tell Tcmc not to be so naive.
As for your two examples, I shall dismiss the first since it is hypothetical and has no reality behind it. Like I said, such speculative scenarios can be multiplied endlessly and really not productive to haggle over them. As for your second example, it is hardly a counter-example. The case of Abraham has nothing to do with denying one's faith. On the contrary it was an affirmation of faith in God.
The lesson I draw from Abraham's case is your god saying that life is precious and should not be wasted just to affirm one's faith in god.
Although it did not address denying one's faith, I believe it applies to all such situations in which life will be laid down for faith.
Abraham was ready to kill his son as god commanded, he did not have faith that god would stop him at the last moment, he only had faith that it was for "the best".
Originally posted by alize:The lesson I draw from Abraham's case is your god saying that life is precious and should not be wasted just to affirm one's faith in god.
Although it did not address denying one's faith, I believe it applies to all such situations in which life will be laid down for faith.
Abraham was ready to kill his son as god commanded, he did not have faith that god would stop him at the last moment, he only had faith that it was for "the best".
BIC
Still cant accept why god will insist someone die for him by not denying him.
Isn't it a bit too much?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
You drew the wrong lesson. Hebrews 11:19 informs us that Abraham faith in God was real and that God is the giver of life.
Why can't I draw the lesson that God wants us to treasure our lives? Is it not so?
God is omnipotent. The sacrifice is needless and purposeless except to test Abraham's faith.
Let us assume your stand that the account teaches us a lesson to have faith in God.
Let's not delve into hypothetical scenarios. The crux is that in our lives, we should not shy away fatal demonstrations of faith, because ultimately faith will not fail you and the demonstration will not be fatal. We should therefore never lack faith in god in the most dire moments.
Is this good guidance? Should we sink our metaphorical knives, because our sons at the last moment will be saved? Or after affirming faith our metaphorical killer's bullets will drop? Hypothetical but you get the idea.
Or should we treasure our lives and be judicious, as a good god would want us to do?
You notice that I do not challenge your claim that "God is the giver of life." Under the notion of creation, this is true. God can also be the taker of life without it being untrue. When it is time, he will take life.
I am just pointing out to you in your belief, you should not hold from Hebews that god is at all times the giver of life :)
Originally posted by alize:Why can't I draw the lesson that God wants us to treasure our lives? Is it not so?
God is omnipotent. The sacrifice is needless and purposeless except to test Abraham's faith.
Let us assume your stand that the account teaches us a lesson to have faith in God.
Let's not delve into hypothetical scenarios. The crux is that in our lives, we should not shy away fatal demonstrations of faith, because ultimately faith will not fail you and the demonstration will not be fatal. We should therefore never lack faith in god in the most dire moments.
Is this good guidance? Should we sink our metaphorical knives, because our sons at the last moment will be saved? Or after affirming faith our metaphorical killer's bullets will drop? Hypothetical but you get the idea.
Or should we treasure our lives and be judicious, as a good god would want us to do?
You notice that I do not challenge your claim that "God is the giver of life." Under the notion of creation, this is true. God can also be the taker of life without it being untrue. When it is time, he will take life.
I am just pointing out to you in your belief, you should not hold from Hebews that god is at all times the giver of life :)
Of course God wants us to treasure our lives, but that was not what that episode was about. In any case, the PURPOSE of that request was to test Abraham's faith, so how can you say it was meaningless and purposeless?
God's request to Abraham was unique and never demanded again of another, so your notion of fatal demonstration of faith is a moot point. One should not be looking around trying to get himself martyred, that is foolishness not faith. In fact, what God asked Abraham to do was to foreshadow that God would be the one who would provide the ultimate sacrifice for sin.
I disagree with your last point. God IS the giver of life at ALL times. He upholds all of creation and sustains all life.
Originally posted by Tcmc:BIC
Still cant accept why god will insist someone die for him by not denying him.
Isn't it a bit too much?
Was God being too much to give life to all living things?
I find it hard to understand why people explain as if God ever finds it necessary to test. He is all knowing. To belief God is testing is really contradicting God's omnipotence.
Originally posted by Aneslayer:I find it hard to understand why people explain as if God ever finds it necessary to test. He is all knowing. To belief God is testing is really contradicting God's omnipotence.
Don't read Bible much?
It was by faith that Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice when God was testing him. Abraham, who had received God’s promises, was ready to sacrifice his only son, Isaac, even though God had told him, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted.” Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead. - Hebrews 11:17
The Bible has many other verses about God testing His people to see if they would obey Him and walk in His ways.
So you believe what the Bible says or not?
So you don't feel/ believe there's a conflict? God testing people and be all knowing? Yes or no will do.
Originally posted by Aneslayer:So you don't feel/ believe there's a conflict? God testing people and be all knowing? Yes or no will do.
You did not even answer my earlier yes or no question. I asked first.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Of course God wants us to treasure our lives, but that was not what that episode was about. In any case, the PURPOSE of that request was to test Abraham's faith, so how can you say it was meaningless and purposeless?
God's request to Abraham was unique and never demanded again of another, so your notion of fatal demonstration of faith is a moot point. One should not be looking around trying to get himself martyred, that is foolishness not faith. In fact, what God asked Abraham to do was to foreshadow that God would be the one who would provide the ultimate sacrifice for sin.
I disagree with your last point. God IS the giver of life at ALL times. He upholds all of creation and sustains all life.
Fatal demonstrations of your faith are NOT unique to Abraham and not a moot point. Even if god does not organise a test for you, others may. Religious persecution is a fact of life. Have you heard of Saint Barbara?
Barbara, the daughter of a rich pagan named Dioscorus ... acknowledged herself to be a Christian; upon this her father drew his sword to kill her, but her prayers created an opening in the wall and she was miraculously transported to a mountain gorge ... Dragged before the prefect of the province, who had her cruelly tortured, Barbara held true to her faith. Finally she was condemned to death by beheading. Her father himself carried out the death-sentence. However, he was struck by lightning on the way home and his body was consumed by flame.
Don't tell us such things will never happen, or not to go looking for martyrdom. Those are moot.
Instead tell us what you would do, and what god's guidance is, in such a situation.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:You did not even answer my earlier yes or no question. I asked first.
Yes King James Version. So you don't feel/ believe there's a conflict? God testing people and be all knowing?
Originally posted by alize:Fatal demonstrations of your faith are NOT unique to Abraham and not a moot point. Even if god does not organise a test for you, others may. Religious persecution is a fact of life. Have you heard of Saint Barbara?
Barbara, the daughter of a rich pagan named Dioscorus ... acknowledged herself to be a Christian; upon this her father drew his sword to kill her, but her prayers created an opening in the wall and she was miraculously transported to a mountain gorge ... Dragged before the prefect of the province, who had her cruelly tortured, Barbara held true to her faith. Finally she was condemned to death by beheading. Her father himself carried out the death-sentence. However, he was struck by lightning on the way home and his body was consumed by flame.
Don't tell us such things will never happen, or not to go looking for martyrdom. Those are moot.
Instead tell us what you would do, and what god's guidance is, in such a situation.
Perhaps it just your choice of word "fatal demonstration" that I find uncomfortable.
Anyway, the Bible teaches that Christians will be persecuted or even killed for their testimony. Rev 20 talks about those who died for upholding their testimony. I know this is easier said than done, but if any believer is caught in such a situation, he should remain steadfast, counting it worthy to suffer or even die for Jesus' Name. The book of Acts have examples of saints who were killed. So I am NOT saying that such things will never happen, I am simply saying that you don't go round with a death wish.
Originally posted by Aneslayer:
Yes King James Version. So you don't feel/ believe there's a conflict? God testing people and be all knowing?
That was New Living Translation lah!
At first you said it contradict God's omnipotence, now it is conflict with omniscient? Or both?
My turn. So you don't feel/ believe there's a conflict? God testing people and be all knowing?
Originally posted by Aneslayer:My turn. So you don't feel/ believe there's a conflict? God testing people and be all knowing?
No. There can no real or actual conflict at all.
If you really believe there's a conflict, then somewhere your thinking about this is fallacious.
To think i was actually concerned that you have such conflict...The conflict was cleared after I found out God did not test Abraham as if He did not know of the outcome.
Originally posted by Aneslayer:To think i was actually concerned that you have such conflict...The conflict was cleared after I found out God did not test Abraham as if He did not know of the outcome.
I am so touched by your concern.
Sarcasm for a genuine concern...
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Perhaps it just your choice of word "fatal demonstration" that I find uncomfortable.
Anyway, the Bible teaches that Christians will be persecuted or even killed for their testimony. Rev 20 talks about those who died for upholding their testimony. I know this is easier said than done, but if any believer is caught in such a situation, he should remain steadfast, counting it worthy to suffer or even die for Jesus' Name. The book of Acts have examples of saints who were killed. So I am NOT saying that such things will never happen, I am simply saying that you don't go round with a death wish.
What purpose would that serve? Is our omnipotent god benefitted by such a fatal demonstration of faith as Saint Barbara's? Or is the martyr's family benefitted?
If a religion requires the disciples to die for it, something is very wrong.
Ah! hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha!
I cannot stop laughing at the sheer absurdity of it
Treasuring one's life is the way
Originally posted by alize:What purpose would that serve? Is our omnipotent god benefitted by such a fatal demonstration of faith as Saint Barbara's? Or is the martyr's family benefitted?
You are seeing things through your limited perspective, not as God sees it. Just because you cannot see a purpose does not mean there's none. Remember, the believers were persecuted by nonbelievers and even bled and died for holding on to the faith. The nonbelieving world even crucified their Creator who took on human form! But God would right all wrongs.
Originally posted by BroInChrist:You are seeing things through your limited perspective, not as God sees it. Just because you cannot see a purpose does not mean there's none. Remember, the believers were persecuted by nonbelievers and even bled and died for holding on to the faith. The nonbelieving world even crucified their Creator who took on human form! But God would right all wrongs.
God is not pleased by blood sacrifice. Not even of animals. Does he expect them? What makes you think he would expect you to die at the hands of a persecutor?
There are so many Biblical instances that you say should not be interpreted in dangerous ways eg OT tracts. What makes you think your interpretation of this matter is correct?
Originally posted by alize:God is not pleased by blood sacrifice. Not even of animals. Does he expect them? What makes you think he would expect you to die at the hands of a persecutor?
There are so many Biblical instances that you say should not be interpreted in dangerous ways eg OT tracts. What makes you think your interpretation of this matter is correct?
What makes you think your interpretation of this matter is correct?
Ans: That has to do with his self righteousness.